Dune: Part Two

In this week's episode we talkabout the biggest film in the world right now: 'Dune: Part Two'. Despite the film receiving a mini review in our last monthly episode, we couldn't resist talking spoilers for one of the greatest sequels of all time. 
We discuss the cinematography, the performances, the plot choices (those similar and different to the book), as well as playing a couple of games and attempting a Christopher Walken impression. May thy knife chip and shatter!

So do the sand worms know what's going on when people ride them? Do they go back to their worm houses and say to their mates, "hey, I gave the guy from Wonka a piggy back today"? If so, do they enjoy it or is it just something that happens and they're so f**king big that they can do nothing but accept it? Somebody check in on the worms.

Hosts - Ellis Barthorpe & Gwilym Roberts
Music - James Milsom
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Transcript

Ellis  0:00  
On a planet covered in sand, a few squads hop in the lobby and fight for Sid planet to gain ownership of the space that grants them power triples their life expectancy and adds fire to their corners. Paul a wee lad, you waited 10 seconds for MJ to forget who Tom Holland was. wormed his way. I'll pardon my pun in the heavies gang, taking them for fools in the sense of power. His mum talks to an unborn foetus, his sort of Uncle plays a guitar badly and his cousin is super horny for death. I don't know even likes it when his uncle dies. I'm confused man sketchy. I am the voice from the outer world.

Gwilym  0:39  
And my knife is chipping and shattering. And

Ellis  0:43  
this is dune part two.

What's the best kind of C defence? Let's let's not pussyfoot around this week. Let's get into it. You know, what is the best kind of sea defence and why is it the sand dune?

Gwilym  1:15  
Wait, what sea defence?

Ellis  1:18  
Yeah,

Gwilym  1:19  
isn't against the ocean? Yeah, like as in the oceans attacking me.

Ellis  1:24  
Have you never heard of sea defences is what like coastal towns put in place to avoid flooding. And to avoid the shiny

Gwilym  1:32  
sea difference I've seen is like to start off Saving Private Ryan. No,

Ellis  1:37  
no, no. So like, you know when you go to the beach, and you see those like wired mesh crates of rocks. Yeah, that's a sea defence. Sandbags seeds

Gwilym  1:52  
I think the best seed defence would probably be the army in the first 90 film over Phoenix you know that's gonna evaporate all of the sea. Right? Yeah. When it comes in as lands raw in the second one blocks the water. This isn't really what I was looking for. You got water spirits who even in there so they can sort it out amongst themselves. You know, take shifts. Why was your favourite scene defence?

Ellis  2:20  
I just think you can't be a sand dune. There are amazing things. You know? For some of them, manmade, some of them? Obviously not. But just you

Gwilym  2:28  
can be a sangean, can't you? Because of sea levels are rising and though they'll get rid of the sand dunes,

Ellis  2:34  
and yes, sand dunes are collapsing everywhere as we speak. So,

Gwilym  2:40  
your army is looking pretty good.

Ellis  2:44  
do part two here we are to do a full episode. Yeah, there we go. This film, which we've been excited about since the release of the first Dune, the last week we did an episode on Star Wars The Force Awakens. It's an easy link to carry over. It's a big space sci fi sand film, as though it's written. There's your link. Yeah, so I love love, love this film. We reviewed it last week, we both gave it a five star. So today, it was change of format two weeks ago, and a bit of a change of format. Because we both gave it a five and we decided it was going on our show for the year. We won't do that at the end and disclose.

Gwilym  3:20  
I disagree. You stop it, we decide whether it goes on the shelf or no

Ellis  3:27  
longer on the shelf on the 2024 shelf because then we'll have June to repeat it on our shelves yet, but they're different

Gwilym  3:33  
shelves for different things. You know, once you know you have different plates for different, you know, your parents might have your Christmas plates. Right, but you still need your regular plates. So 2024 Right. The Christmas

Ellis  3:48  
plates.

Gwilym  3:49  
You're doing Christmas. Yeah, exactly.

Ellis  3:53  
So you're you You've so got all of your in point there

Gwilym  3:58  
know that I blade is shattering and chipping all over the place, buddy or pan. So I like films that came out in 2024. Right which currently we've got two films on that's like your Christmas plates. That's like at the end of the year, you get out and you're like bang this is what we've got. Whereas a normal shelf is your bread and butter. It's what am I going to watch this week bank Doom two. If it goes on there, no spoilers. Or you know, let's work on crazy. Obviously

Ellis  4:27  
gonna go on there. It's not something that we've we've spoken about it already. We're speaking about it again in more detail, spoiling it. So if people are here and they don't want spoilers, don't listen to this episode. This is going to spoil Doom part two. So I just feel like it's already made it onto our shelf of the year. So to then take up a space for another film on a shelf. Yeah, talking about this. Yeah, you're saying it doesn't seem fair. Well, life isn't

Gwilym  4:56  
fair. That's what my mom always said whenever I was like, you know, how can my sister get is Facebook earlier than I did? You know? I'm like, That's not fair. And she goes, Well, life isn't. And there we go.

Ellis  5:06  
We'll see what is written by the end of the podcast. Yeah. But we're going to spoil it. We're going to talk in depth as much as we can about the film. To kick it off. I've got a game to play. Name an actor in Dune, part two.

Gwilym  5:28  
Timothy Shalabi. Okay,

Ellis  5:30  
we've got to go backwards and forwards naming films that Tim had or projects that Timothy Shalini has started. Okay, whenever is the first person the first person to run out of things is to lose Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so you start my friend. I'll start with June. I'll start with June Part Two Little Women. Wonka call me by your name. Rainy Day in New York.

Gwilym  5:58  
Don't look up

Ellis  6:04  
interstellar

Gwilym  6:06  
ladybird shit

Ellis  6:23  
submit a Shallum a five.

Gwilym  6:25  
Ford through to Warren.

Ellis  6:32  
Did you have another one? Beautiful boy. With ces Yeah, yeah. Good. Well, well done.

Gwilym  6:40  
I know the Tim.

Ellis  6:41  
Just a fun little game to you know to Lulu

Gwilym  6:45  
dominance there. My blade is chipped and shattered.

Ellis  6:49  
Yeah. Shall we? Shall we start then with with this? Where? Where is good start the the opening of the film. Make sense? Right. Yeah. So I was so like, eyes wide open mouth open. Eyes on the screen couldn't stop watching as soon as this film started, because you have obviously you have like the a bit with Florence Pugh and Chris Walken? Yeah. But I mean, when they're on the dune.

Gwilym  7:19  
Yeah. When you've got the Harkins. Like they're patrolled. And you've got the Fremen with Paul, sort of watching them over that that do nanyue. Exactly.

Ellis  7:33  
Yeah. So I feel like that's actually before we before we do that, we should say, a little bit of a breakdown of who's who, because even when you've seen I've seen this film with a few different people and people get confused by the names the houses. So if we can make it a bit easier, I think that'd be helpful. So let's do 10 seconds at a time. We'll try and go backwards and forwards trying to explain, okay, the law of the houses of the families of how everything works. So I'll start gone. Paul, is in a tradies, son of Duke Leto and Lady Rebecca, Rebecca, Rebecca Ferguson. And at the end of the film him first film him and his mum sent out into the desert by the Harkins

Gwilym  8:22  
the Harkins used to rule over the planet of a raucous, but then they were moved in this scheme by the emperor and then came back and killed all the treaties. And they basically ruled over the Fremen. The

Ellis  8:39  
Fremen are a group of people that live in the south of Arachis. And that is where Paul and Lady Jessica are now Paul is trying to become one of the Fremen spice

Gwilym  8:51  
is what everyone sort of fights for. It's what is used everywhere in this universe. It's how you do space travel. It's how you the Reverend mother's sort of like communique. And it's also just like a sick drug. So

Ellis  9:08  
yeah, and spice is on Arachis that is why Iraq is such a sought after planet. However, the tradies were in command of Arachis and they all got killed by the Harkins who were in cahoots with the Emperor.

Gwilym  9:24  
Yeah, I mean, the Emperor sort of wasn't seen in the first one, but we see him a quite long the second and he is just the ruler of everyone for interviews his daughter, and there's also sort of an ad shadow organisation called The Reverend mothers. Yeah,

Ellis  9:46  
so essentially, the Fremen heavier burdens lot. Yeah, we're in the South.

Gwilym  9:52  
Well see that in the north, they've got a community in the south but the start the film, they're still in the north.

Ellis  9:59  
This In the north, yeah, sure. The Harkins are the bold people.

Gwilym  10:03  
Yeah Skarsgard and Austin Butler and Dave Batista, Batista.

Ellis  10:06  
And then the tradies are pretty much all dead. Yep. For we still knocking about

Gwilym  10:17  
his mom. And we laid to find out Josh Brolin?

Ellis  10:22  
Yeah, I think we've I think we've we've covered a lot of grounds. Yeah.

Gwilym  10:26  
I mean, it was an awful explanation. Go on fucking week Wikipedia or something for a better one. But yeah, we did no job.

Ellis  10:34  
Yeah. But Christopher Walken is over it all. He's that he's the main boy. And then the hawk. He goes where the power is. Florence Pugh says that one point or she says that to the Reverend Mother. But yeah, he goes where the power is, and the power was with the Harkins when they wanted to take over Iraqis. So he just kind of let it happen. Yeah. But yeah, when we propagate into the action, you have Timothy chummy waking up, and Zendaya telling them to be quiet, and they're on the edge of a dune. And then they have this interaction with Harkins, which sets up the beauty the majesty the cinematographer, oh, my God, this film so so well, the bright orange hue, you can feel the heat coming off with everything. And it also just introduced you to the gadgets to the world to the characters really, really well throws you straight back in.

Gwilym  11:23  
Yeah, I think that's what this film does really well. In the first film, you get a bit of a gotcha explanation with things like the suits. And with things like, what what sand walking is, bits and bobs like that, whereas in this film, it doesn't bother explaining anything that you should, that either you should know coming in from the first film, or that you don't really need an explanation, like, you don't need an explanation for why they're able to float up the rock. Because it doesn't matter. It just goes out the gauges, it's just, this is what it is. So I think this film does such a good job at just always showing and never telling with the world building. Absolutely

Ellis  12:07  
a bits like spring to mind from what you're saying there is like when they're getting the water out of the bodies, when they've got the breathing apparatus. And you can see like the attention to detail on those is amazing. Yeah, like the little ends that you can put on the NDA is to get into the corners, you know. And then you've got the, the stampers as well like just the attention to detail in each of those. It's so cool. But like you said that that thing of it showing not telling doesn't have to explain everything. It just you watch it, so then you understand it and you get to grips with what's going on.

Gwilym  12:43  
And I think I'm gonna jump a little bit ahead just for what I think is a perfect example of this is when Paul rise the sandworm for the first time, because I think other tea, other directors or screenwriters or another film would have a whole montage of pool, learning how to ride the sandworm. While still God has given him tips and all of that. And as he's doing it, you know, there would have been Charney in off screen going, Oh, no, he needs to go on this grappling hook or going, Oh, he's fallen, like having reaction shots like that. But yeah, but you don't get that you only get what you need to which is this is first time writing us sandworm. This is sort of rite of passage. And everything else is the action.

Ellis  13:36  
Yeah, but also, you just you just kind of have to understand that and you're thrown into it. And the way it makes you feel there's a moment when they put the hooks, he throws them and it goes into like it happens a couple of times into like his breathing hole. Yeah. And that you make you feel for the worm. Yeah. Oh, no, it probably hurts. So just by doing that, you know that what is going on? You know what it's all about. It's so amazing how quickly this film goes from you rooting for that character so much. To then without even realising it's happened. You kind of go Hold on. Wait a sec. Yeah. The book kind of has this more gradual rise, right? Because I didn't I stopped reading when we got to the point where Yeah, first film ended because I wanted to experience it as a film.

Gwilym  14:27  
Yeah, so basically, this film is a cautionary tale tale about the white saviour and about going to a plant plays and using religious coats and all that stuff is a cautionary tale. And a lot of people when they first read dune when it first came out, saw Paul as the as a hero, basically. And so Frank Herbert was like no, no, no, no, that's that's not what he is. And you sort of see that a bit more in the in the later book. And so did he feel nerve, like made it very clear. And it's why there's a big change from Charney, Sunday's character from the film to the book, which originally I didn't like. But after hearing Danny talk about it, I'm so on board with it. Because he said she was the way we're going to see what Paul is doing is wrong, the fact that he's abusing these, these people's beliefs and making them turn into fanatics. And the fact that she knows at the end of the day, if someone's rolling over you, someone is rolling over you, and you are not free. And I think the film Yes, sort of, really does a shift. When he goes to the South after he drinks the Light Water of Life. He's like, full on, right? I've got to do this. But

Ellis  15:52  
from the beginning, she's sceptical. Yeah, he's always like, not sure about him doesn't trust him. She openly says, I can't trust you, because you're not from her. Yeah. And I never will. So and she's right to. And I think it's so clever how the film switches from you being on poolside to suddenly you're on shiny side. I think it's so clever. And the film ends with her on the top of the dune. I think it's intentional that it ends that way. I think it's intentional that we feel for her. Yeah, we're kind of on her side. And there's that brilliant, brilliant moment in the final fight, where he looks over at Charlie. After, when she leaves, she walks out. And he looks back. And just before he says that line. lead them to paradise. You see this look in his eyes of lightweight, and there's an air of regret in the way he says it. Yeah, Chinese walked on him he loves no one is gone too far. But he's at this point, I feel like he's like, Well, I may as well carry on. What we're gonna do. So that leads into paradise is like, what have I done? And I think that's so clever as well, because it shows that oh, that character is still there that you like that you'd like to at the beginning of this film. He's still in there. But a lot has happened. And a lot has changed.

Gwilym  17:10  
Yeah. Because with Paul, Paul knows, well, Paul doesn't want to do what he's doing. He knows that, which is why he was so against going south, which is why he was he didn't want to take on this leader role is because he knows what he's going to do is going to lead to destruction like in his visions. But But do

Ellis  17:31  
you think, do you think from the beginning that he has this plan in mind? For this film,

Gwilym  17:39  
what do you mean plan as in?

Ellis  17:40  
So do you think he knows that he is it all part of his scheme that he's going to? Because when he first starts talking to the freshmen, he's been very much like, no, no, it's true. I'm not anything special. I'm not the Messiah. He keeps saying all that. Do you think he believes he's not the Messiah? Or is it all part of his plan to like, get them on board so that they will follow him? And believe in him?

Gwilym  18:02  
No, I think he knows his. He knows he's not the Messiah, because he knows the Messiah is a made up thing created by the banner Jessa. And I think it's, you know, there's, you've got the scene between him. And Jessica, when he ends up needing to tell her often say, I commend what he says, but he's like, that is not freedom or something like that. And I think that shows, he doesn't want to do this and how reluctant he is to go south. But I think essentially, his his urge for revenge against not just the Harkins, but also the Emperor, and everybody is what drives him to go, I need to get the power I need. And so that's why I'm gonna go drink the water of life, become this person who can see the future and all that stuff, and then use use that use these people. He then starts using the Fremen as tools, as opposed to sure as as people is with us what I think I

Ellis  19:11  
think it's so cleverly done as well that you have that you have still gar as one side who fully believes in Him fully believes he's the Messiah, he's this special person. And Chani, who doesn't and the fact that we see a lot of both of those characters and the way they interact with Paul means we have to kind of make our own mind up. So you say now what, what you just said about your thoughts on Paul, I kind of disagree because I think that there is an air of he knows who he is. He had power once because of who his family are. He's been there. I think he knows the potential for him stepping back into that and getting power. Again. I think the dreams are leading in there. And I know that means that he's kind of you know, he's maybe regretful of what he's going to do but I think that is an element with Paul that he knows He's gonna cause destruction. And he knows the way to do it is by using the friend from the beginning

Gwilym  20:05  
to see I just think of the conversation he had with his dad in the first film, where like, he basically he says, like, we would have I, what if I'm not good in power? What if I don't want to be in power? And this dad says, well, then you'll still be the only thing I ever need, which is my son. And I think that that is his through line for me is taking revenge on his dad. I think he doesn't actually care about a raucous, right, if it were up to him, Iraqis would be blown up total existence. And then he starts I do personally believe. And maybe it's because of changes that were from the book when knowing what is what the book is, but I do think he cares about the Fremen. And he cares about particularly Charney but I think just his revenge is is what? What he will always think back on.

Ellis  21:09  
I don't think he's ever that fueled by revenge. I don't think he ever really Yeah, I never get the sense that he's like, he obviously misses his dad. But I don't ever really get the sense that he's like doing this for his dad and for his family. I just don't. I just feel like he was much closer with his dad than his mum because of the kind of people they are.

Gwilym  21:28  
When he said to like the Harkins, like, not the harkens to the Freeman, you've been fighting the Harkins for decades. We've been playing them for centuries, that for me, was him going. I'm doing this for my family for everything that came before, as well as for my dad and all that stuff. I think there's for me, and there were very clear shots, in my point of view of him resembling his dad or thinking about his dad. I think Leto was a huge influence on what what Paul is doing.

Ellis  22:08  
Well, how could you not be is Oscar Isaac, you know he is. As

Gwilym  22:11  
Oscar Isaac asked me to go to a plan and take over it. I love our time saying no.

Ellis  22:20  
What I also love in Paul's journey is how much the harkens a given detail. Like we spend a good half an hour on their planet, meeting them finding out what they're all about. Especially fade ralpher For ultimately for it to mean nothing. It just be another part in Paul's story. Yeah, it's just another section in him getting to power and getting to where he needs to be. And I think that so I think it would have been really easy for Tony to put these into one film and give the Harkins no detail. I think on paper, he could have easily done that. And it's so good that he hasn't because it just makes this film. So good. It feels like you're watching by the end, the final episode in a big season that's been given 10 hours of time spent with these characters because you're, you know everything about them all. You know, if one of them stepped out a line, you'd be like that's out of character. You know so much about them. And it's two and a half hours, the even Florence Pugh

Gwilym  23:18  
that you really don't spend a lot of time with in this film. You know who she is based on the four or five scenes. We've seen her in. And I saw,

Ellis  23:27  
you know, Christopher Walken is going to cower. You know, he's going to in the end, he's going to fall to pull. Yeah, because he's got the power. Yeah.

Gwilym  23:35  
And I think a perfect example of what you just said about the hearken has been given the detail is I just love that Paul becomes so powerful that the revelation of him being the barons, grandson, it doesn't faze him. And he just uses that. Like, it's not changing his mind is not going to make him go oh, you know, but should I kill them their family or anything like that? It's just him going? Alright, well, I guess it's my granddad them killing you know, does doesn't matter. But I just think that coldness is so well poke because obviously you can go wild, they killed his family, but I think other characters would have had that hesitation. And he just didn't have that. But

Ellis  24:24  
what a twist though, that that he is his grit. I didn't see that coming at all. Yeah,

Gwilym  24:29  
it's so just,

Ellis  24:30  
it was that moment. I was like, wait, we wait, what Wait, what God has revealed like that that lady Jessica, because that's how it's revealed. It's not about Paul. It's Lady Jessica is the Barons daughter? Yeah. I think that's just such a good which means

Gwilym  24:47  
the barrel lugs so bear that in mind, but

Ellis  24:52  
it's so downplayed, but yeah, the Baron does. What does he do in that bath? What? That's one thing I don't know. stuff that I imagine is explained more in the book. No, it's not. No, you just

Gwilym  25:04  
hold on, let me think back. Yes, you're right. That's the whole chapter. The Baron in the bar.

Ellis  25:11  
Must be, there must be a reason that he's in that black bath.

Gwilym  25:14  
No, I think it's like, yeah, I'm sure there's a reason. But again, we don't need to know it. So we're not going to be told it is like the first one when the banner just right goes to see the Baron who's like flow in all that stuff. And there's that weird spider like creature that just crawls out? Hold on, we're not going to it's not that. And it's just a way to go. Hey, this is a huge expanse of world with, with a huge expanse of cultures. And we're only seeing a small snippet of it. I

Ellis  25:46  
dread to think what production companies are offering don't even live because there's no way that they see that and don't go opportunity. 10 TV series 5000 sequels, people we see potentially because there's so much at that Walmart, you know, toys for

Gwilym  26:03  
that little weird spider bigger.

Ellis  26:05  
So? Yeah, I don't think sandworm toys are the best idea.

Gwilym  26:11  
No, they definitely only make good popcorn bucket lids.

Ellis  26:14  
Yeah, they exist, but you're not buying them at Toys R Us. That's what I know. It's still a thing. It's not, is it? No,

Gwilym  26:23  
no, I don't think it is. It is incredible. Because there's always there's like eight Jun books, I think. And Danny from what it's looking like is doing the first two, with June the first book being split into the into two, which makes sense because it is the biggest and chunkiest. And I think Danny is just doing a grand job by saying I'm just gonna do this story. Because it means he doesn't because it gets so weird later on. So weird. And it's, it's been called like an unfilmable series for reason. And that he's broken that with the first with the first two films showing. Yeah, if you don't try and just explain everything. And if you just at the core of it, keep the characters and what's important to the characters. Because that's it's it's an epic film is epic ly shot. There's epic moments. But at the core of it, it's all about the characters, and what they mean to each other. I think just to have the subtlety of moments like when you've got a Charney and Paul in the tents. And just those quiet moments, there's some look still gar gifts that are absolutely fantastic.

Ellis  27:43  
But that's what I preferred about this film is still girls still got brings a level of humour. Yeah, I think the first film is so dry, and so serious. And I didn't mind that about it. But the reason I liked the second one more was because it did have a lighter shade. And it definitely needs that because of how dark things get later on. Yeah, but exactly what you're saying is big and loud and exciting. But it is so delicate. I think I said this the other week, it's so delicate in how much attention to detail there is the display of its world, the kind of charisma that so underplayed a lot of the time for a lot of the characters. You know, there's like, it's like you're saying like they could easily spin this into all sorts of big Yeah. You know, there could be a still Garfield. There could be a Charney Leto. Yeah.

Gwilym  28:39  
You know how the Emperor rose to power, all of that. And I think that'd be silly, too. Because I think what I'd

Ellis  28:46  
be what I think would be really cool is there's three other main houses right.

Gwilym  28:52  
Now, I think there's seven great houses are there? Oh, seven?

Ellis  28:55  
Will you trade? These would be one that harkens another? Yeah. So maybe five more. But I check. I was thinking like,

Gwilym  29:09  
say there were three main ones that were Oh, no, there's 157 Great Houses. Oh, perfect, right.

Ellis  29:16  
Where you could pick like three big ones. And have like, a butler film. You know, I mean, like, do a film on one house film on the other film The Other then do do Messiah or do whatever the climax is where they all come down. You know,

Gwilym  29:32  
I don't think you can give them what Jean Messiah does. And what's gonna happen between those two films. Yeah, I don't think you can do that at all. And I think this studio is hopefully going to be really clever. And sort of go this is a goldmine. But it's not a unlimited Goldmine, right? We cannot especially seeing what's happened to things like Marvel and Star Wars. To go we can handed over face. People with June. So we just need to like I think there's going to be a few June games coming out. And I think that's all it needs to do.